Openmoko - User contributions [en]

User:PWerken

2012-09-18T21:32:25Z

PWerken: add device-hook script for adding agps support to gpsd

== Peter van de Werken [[Special:Emailuser/PWerken|(email)]] ==

Freerunner A5, with
[http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Buzz-Rework Buzz],
[http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Bass-Rework Bass], and
[http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=1024-Rework 1024] reworks,
 
and "Standard" [[Freerunner Navigation Board v2]] installed.

OS: [http://www.debian.org debian] (sid)
* [[Kernel#Building_the_2.6.32_branch|Kernel building]]
** [http://github.com/shr-distribution/linux shr] [http://github.com/shr-distribution/linux/commits/om-gta02/2.6.39/om-stable om-gta02/2.6.39/om-stable]
* µSD (16G, class 2):
** p1 <tt>rootfs</tt> (1G)
** p2 <tt>/home,/srv</tt> (14+G)
** p3 <tt>swap</tt> (128M)
* debian tweaks:
** localepurge
** dpkg with "path-exclude /usr/share/doc/*"
** [http://www.enlightenment.org Enlightenment] ([http://home.a-eskwadraat.nl/~pwerken/debian/ self build packages])
** [[#gpsd device-hook|gpsd with device-hook]] that handles both fso resource and agps data

== Links ==

* [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-January/059014.html Handset sound volume issues]
* [[Manually_using_Bluetooth|Bluetooth]]
* [[Tethering#Turning_your_FreeRunner_into_a_Network_Address_Translation_.28NAT.29_gateway|Tethering]]
* [http://www.screenpatronus.com ScreenPatronus]

== gpsd device-hook ==

With the device-hook script below gpsd will use [https://github.com/gabrys/gta02-agps gta02-gps] to retrieve and store agps data. Do NOT start gpsd with the -n option, because then it will never deactivate the gps device.

An issue that needs to be resolved: gpsd doesn't deactivate the device until 60 seconds after the last client disconnects.
If the device suspends during those 60 seconds the kernel will power down the gps and the agps data will be lost.
* The 60 second timeout should be made configurable (and in our case be set to something low like 2 seconds).
* Another solution would be to have the suspend script check if gps is powered on and ifso don't suspend. Or even better set "om gps keep-on-in-suspend 1" and schedule a (rtc) wakeup in 60 seconds.

/etc/gpsd/device-hook :

DATA=/var/cache/gta02-gps/agpsdata # nobody:dialout a=r,u+w
agps=/usr/local/bin/gta02-gps

case "$2" in
"ACTIVATE")
mdbus2 -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage \
org.freesmartphone.Usage.SetResourcePolicy GPS enabled
$agps --setup-serial $1 --load-agps $DATA
;;
"DEACTIVATE")
for i in 1 2 3
do
$agps --setup-serial $1 --dump-agps $DATA.new || continue
[ $(stat --printf="%s" $DATE.new) -lt 1024 ] && continue
mv $DATA.new $DATA
break
done
mdbus2 -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage \
org.freesmartphone.Usage.SetResourcePolicy GPS auto
;;
esac

exit 0
If you don't use the fso resouce, just make a call to "om gps power" instead.

== Navigation Board v2 ==

'''# i2cdetect -l'''
i2c-0 i2c s3c2410-i2c I2C adapter

'''# i2cdetect -F s3c2410-i2c'''
Functionalities implemented by /dev/i2c-0:
I2C yes
SMBus Quick Command yes
SMBus Send Byte yes
SMBus Receive Byte yes
SMBus Write Byte yes
SMBus Read Byte yes
SMBus Write Word yes
SMBus Read Word yes
SMBus Process Call yes
SMBus Block Write yes
SMBus Block Read no
SMBus Block Process Call no
SMBus PEC yes
I2C Block Write yes
I2C Block Read yes

'''# i2cdetect s3c2410-i2c'''
WARNING! This program can confuse your I2C bus, cause data loss and worse!
I will probe file /dev/i2c-0.
I will probe address range 0x03-0x77.
Continue? [Y/n] Y
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f
00: 03 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
10: -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- UU -- -- -- 1e --
20: -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
30: -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
40: -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
50: -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 5a -- -- -- -- --
60: 60 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 69 -- -- -- -- -- --
70: 70 -- -- UU -- -- -- 77

GPRS APN table

2011-01-12T11:54:59Z

PWerken: add simyo.nl info

{| class="wikitable sortable" border="1"
! Country
! Carrier
! Plan
! APN/Phone
! user/password if required
! Working pppd scripts
|-
| Australia || Telstra || Any || telstra.internet || || use CHAP auth with "" secret
|-
| Australia || Virgin || Any || VirginInternet || ||
|-
| Australia || Virgin || Any || VirginBroadband || || Uses a captive portal to register the first time that did not work on 2008.12 - had to place inside a 3G tethered device on PC.

Must use PAP auth, ie. disable chap by putting refuse-chap,refuse-mschap,refuse-mschap-v2,refuse-eap,receive-all in /etc/ppp/options
|-
| Australia || Vodafone || Any || vfinternet.au || ||
|-
| Austria|| Orange/One|| Any || web.one.at || web/web || works with gsm0710d under om2008.9: [http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=295 howto] - complete /etc/ppp/ directory with settings can be found here: [http://www.true-binary.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/orange_ppp.tar.gz orange_ppp.tar.gz]
|-
| Canada || Fido || Any, behind NAT || internet.fido.ca || fido/fido || use pap authetication
proxy address 205.151.011.011:8080

mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.frameworkd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device
org.freesmartphone.GSM.PDP.ActivateContext internet.fido.ca fido
fido
|-
| Canada || Rogers || Any, behind NAT || internet.com || wapuser1/wap || nameserver 207.181.101.4
|-
| Canada || Rogers || $7 unlimited browsing || goam.com || wapuser1/wap || Must use a proxy server 10.128.1.69:80 (or 172.25.0.107:80 or 208.200.67.150:8080)
|-
| Czech Republic || Vodafone || any postpaid || internet || must be empty || [[GPRS_FSO|Works with FSO]] Behind NAT.
|-
| Czech Republic || Vodafone || prepaid || ointernet || must be empty || [[GPRS_FSO|Works with FSO]] Behind NAT.
|-
| Czech Republic || 02 || Unlimited data plan || internet || must be empty || [[http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Manually_using_GPRS&action=submit#Option_3:_Without_GSM_multiplexing_and_without_a_GUI Works with OM2008.9]] and with [[GPRS_FSO|FSO]].
|-

| Denmark || Telmore || || wap || must be empty ||
|-
| Denmark || Unotel || || internet || must be empty || Note: APN not tested
|-
| Estonia || Elisa || Any, behind NAT || internet || ||
|-
| Estonia || EMT || Any, behind NAT || internet.emt.ee || ||
|-
| Fiji || Digicel || Any || wap.digicelpacific.com || || nameserver 10.150.123.41 10.150.102.240 Must use a proxy server 10.150.122.12:8080
|-
| Finland || Elisa || unknown || internet || ||
|-
| Finland || Saunalahti || Any || internet.saunalahti || ||
|-
| Finland || Sonera || Any, behind NAT || internet || ||
|-
| Finland || Sonera || Any, public IP || prointernet || ||
|-
| France || SFR || 10.x.x.x? || websfr || || under tests
|-
| France || SFR || 10.x.x.x? || wapsfr[1]|| || under tests
|-
| France || Zero forfait || Any || internet68 || || Works under qtmoko v024 with UI. + does not accept compression control protocol , you will have to add noccp manually in /etc/ppp/peers/dialupxxxxxxx
|-
| France || Orange || ??? || orange || orange orange|| Work under OM2008.9 FDOM with UI ( gsm0710muxd )
|-
| France || Bouyges Telecom || Web & Mail || mmsbouygtel.com || || Work great under FSO. Just follow instructions at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPRS_FSO. Proxy: 62.201.129.225:8080. For emails, only ports 25 (smtp) and 110 (pop) are allowed. (They use a transparent proxy ...)
|-
| Germany || Alice || || internet.partner1 || || worked (tested with zhone), [http://www.alice-dsl.de/alicehelp/index.jsp?showContentNodeId=1006&type=6#1006 source of information]
|-
| Germany || E-Plus || BASE (and others?) || internet.eplus.de || eplus gprs || [[Base pppd scripts]]
|-
| Germany || E-Plus || Blau.de || internet.eplus.de || NO_USERNAME eplus blau blau|| http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPRS_FSO#Using_scripts
|-
| Germany || E-Plus || Simyo || internet.eplus.de || simyo simyo || [[simyo pppd scripts]]
|-
| Germany || T-Mobile || || internet.t-mobile.de || t-d1/gprs || nameserver 193.254.160.1
|-
| Germany || Vodafone || Any, behind NAT || web.vodafone.de || ||
|-
| Hungary || T-Mobile || Any || internet / *99***1# || must be empty || must disable chap auth: refuse-chap, refuse-mschap, refuse-mschap-v2
|-
| India || Vodafone|| Vodafone Live![tested on prepaid] || portalnmms || guest/guest[any but must] || gprs-on.sh and gprs-off.sh from http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPRS_FSO and proxy is 10.10.1.100 and port 9401
|-
| India || AirTel || MobileOffice || airtelgprs.com || ||
|-
| Ireland || Vodafone || || isp.vodafone.ie || vodafone/vodafone ||
|-
| Ireland || O2 || || open.internet || gprs/gprs ||
|-
| Israel || Orange || Base (and others?) || internet || orange/mobile54 ||
|-
| Italy || Wind || Superinternet, public IP || internet.wind / *99# || wind/wind (any string) || [[Wind pppd scripts]]
|-
| Italy || TIM || Base || ibox.tim.it || ||
|-
| Netherlands || Simyo || Any || basicinternet || must be empty ||
|-
| Netherlands || Telfort || Any || internet / *99***1# || must be emtpy || [http://www.quickim.com/support/gprs-settings.html#Netherlands internet access GPRS settings for your mobile phone and mobile operator]
|-
| Netherlands || Vodafone || Any || live.vodafone.com / *99***1# || || [[Vodafone pppd scripts]]
|-
| New Zealand || Vodafone || Any || live.vodafone.com / *99***2# || ||
|-
| Norway || Netcom || Any || internet.netcom.no || ||
|-
| Norway || Chess || Any || netcom || username="chess", password="chess" || [[GPRS FSO]]
|-
| Norway || OneCall || Any || internet || ||
|-
| Norway || Telenor || Any || telenor || ||
|-
| Russia || MTS || Any || internet.mts.ru / *99***1# || mts/mts ||
|-
| Russia || Megafon || Any || internet || ||
|-
| Russia || Tele2 || Any || internet.tele2.ru || ||
|-
| Russia || Beeline || Any || internet.beeline.ru || ||
|-
| Slovakia || Orange || Any || internet || ||
|-
| Slovakia || Telefonica O2 || Any || o2internet || ||
|-
| Slovakia || T-Mobile || Any || internet || ||
|-
| Spain || Masmovil || Any || internetmas || ||
|-
| Spain || Orange || Any? || orangeworld || || tested with prepaid acoount
|-
| Spain || Simyo || Any || gprs-service.com / *99# || ||
|-
| Spain || Yoigo || Any || internet / *99***1 || must be empty || [[Yoigo pppd scripts]]
|-
| Sweden || Parlino || || internet.parlino.se || || [[GPRS_FSO|Works with FSO]]
|-
| Sweden || Telia || || online.telia.se || || [[GPRS_FSO|Works with FSO]]
|-
| Switzerland || Sunrise || || internet || ||
|-
| Switzerland || Sunrise || MMS || mms.sunrise.ch || ||
|-
| Switzerland || Swisscom || e.g. Natel Basic Liberty, behind NAT || gprs.swisscom.ch || ||
|-
| Taiwan || Taiwan Mobile || Prepaid|| internet || || shr-settings (FSO)
|-
| UK || T-Mobile|| || general.t-mobile.uk || ||
|-
| UK || Virgin || || goto.virginmobile.uk || user ||
|-
| UK || [http://www.filesaveas.com/gprs.html other providers] || || || ||
|-
| Ukraine || Jeans (MTS) || Prepaid || www.umc.ua / *99***1# || */* || [http://www.jeans.ua/ua/mobile_internet]
|-
| USA || AT&T || Unlimited data plan (attached to pay-as-you-go voice plan) || wap.cingular / *99***1# || WAP@CINGULARGPRS.COM/CINGULAR1 ||
|-
| USA || AT&T || Pay As You Go || WAP.CINGULAR || WAP@CINGULARGPRS.COM / CINGULAR1 || FSO (shr-settings)
|-
| USA || Cincinnati Bell Wireless || || wap.gocbw.com || cbw ||
|-
| USA || Cingular (AT&T) || Less than full internet || wap.cingular / may require *99***1# || ||
|-
| USA || T-mobile || Anything less than full internet || wap.voicestream.com || guest/guest (blank does not work) || Need to set proxy to 216.155.165.50 T-Mobile docs say "216.155.165.050". 050 octal = 40 decimal and will *not* work. I think port is 8080 or 9100. No luck w/ pppd scripts. GPRS_FSO directions work under FSO though.
|-
| USA || T-mobile || Regular internet plan || internet2.voicestream.com || || [[T-Mobile pppd scripts]]
|-
| USA || T-mobile || "VPN" internet plan || internet3.voicestream.com || ||
|-
| Venezuela || Digitel || Pre- y post-pago || gprsweb.digitel.ve || ||
|-
|}

[1] connected through a WAP proxy (slower, but the only way to access Vodafone live! and SFR portal)

[2] Unless stated otherwise the phone number to call is "*99#"

Also see Ross Barkman's page for a detailed list of more [http://www.taniwha.org.uk/gprs.html global GPRS providers APN details]

[[Category:GPRS]]

User:PWerken

2011-01-10T15:54:33Z

PWerken: update link to kernel git repo's

2010-10-17T15:39:45Z

PWerken: added kernel links

2010-03-27T14:46:57Z

PWerken:

'''Peter van de Werken'''

* [http://downloads.openmoko.org/developer/schematics/GTA02/component-placement_by_lindi/ Component Placement by Lindi]
* [http://www.neofundas.blogspot.com/ #1024 Hardware fix]
* [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-January/059014.html Handset sound volume issues]

Usage:
* [[Manually_using_Bluetooth|Bluetooth]]
* [[Tethering#Turning_your_FreeRunner_into_a_Network_Address_Translation_.28NAT.29_gateway|Tethering]]

Screen protector:
* [http://www.screenpatronus.com ScreenPatronus]

----

Bought a 2.5mm to 3.5mm converter cable ([http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7127 sku.7127 at dealextreme]). 
It has the following pin-layout: TRRS: left, right, mic (unconnected), ground

Unfortunately this is incompatible with the FR which uses [[Headset#Pinout|TRRS: mic, right, left, ground]]

User:PWerken

2010-03-27T14:45:39Z

PWerken:

'''Peter van de Werken'''

* [http://downloads.openmoko.org/developer/schematics/GTA02/component-placement_by_lindi/ Component Placement by Lindi]
* [http://www.neofundas.blogspot.com/ #1024 Hardware fix]
* [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-January/059014.html Handset sound volume issues]

Usage:
* [[Manually_using_Bluetooth|Bluetooth]]
* [[Tethering#Turning_your_FreeRunner_into_a_Network_Address_Translation_.28NAT.29_gateway|Tethering]]

Screen protector:
* [http://www.screenpatronus.com ScreenPatronus]

----

Bought a 2.5mm to 3.5mm converter cable ([http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7127 sku.7127 at dealextreme]). 
It has the following pin-layout: TRRS: right, left, mic (unconnected), ground

Unfortunately this is incompatible with the FR which uses [[Headset#Pinout|TRRS: mic, right, left, ground]]

User:PWerken

2010-01-09T14:55:35Z

PWerken:

2008-05-07T12:59:47Z

PWerken: /* Status */

Group sales

2008-05-07T12:59:17Z

PWerken: /* Utrecht +1 */

Talk:Group sales

2008-05-05T20:57:08Z

PWerken: /* Votes for a reseller */

<div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div>
== England ==
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===

{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?

:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====

I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?

I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?

In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(

:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==

Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.

{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)

{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.

{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}

Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen

Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd
zou willen zien worden.
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie
over het te leveren artikel.

Uw naam J. de Haan
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]
Artikelinformatie
Merk openmoko
Naam freerunner
Website openmoko.com

L.S.,

wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?

Hoogachtend,

J. de Haan.

PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail
wordt daar ook gepost.

E-mailcontact - verzonden
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)

{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.

{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.

{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.

{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.

{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out
on Utrecht CS :-)

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.

{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.

{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.

{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? 
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).

{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1."
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.

{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)

{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.

{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will heave 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.

{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!

{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)

{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:

Geachte heer,

Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de

Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de

Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx
Product Management / Technical Support

Salland Automatisering

Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.

{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.

{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. 
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com>
to inkoop@azerty.nl,
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM
subject Openmoko - Freerunner
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)

L.S.,

wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is
nog niet op de markt,
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.

Hoogachtend,

J. de Haan.

PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail
wordt daar ook gepost.

{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.

{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. 
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):

=== Votes for a reseller ===
{|border=1
!Name
!Trisoft
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland
|-
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]
|
|1
|-
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]
|
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)
|-
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]
|
|1
|-
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]
|
|1 (note: I'll buy 2 Freerunners)
|-
|[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]]
|
|1
|-
|'''Total'''
|0
|5
|}

== Belgium ==
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.

== Croatia ==
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''

moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;

> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i

> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su

> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu

> za pivu" ?

Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se
u HULK ako treba

ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:

1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba

dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''

nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)

== Czech Republic ==

Jak vlastně nakonec bude vypadat ? Ten bílý se mně moc nelíbí. Černý je hezký. (Pavel Kovář)

Talk:Group sales

2008-05-05T20:16:50Z

PWerken: /* Votes for a reseller; OSNN +1*/

<div style='float:right'>__TOC__</div>
== England ==
=== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Oxford Oxford] ===

{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 27/04}
It seems apparent from the London group that there will not be 10 people in Oxford who initially want a Freerunner. Therefore I suggest one person gets an 10 pack shipped to them (to save on price, shipping and to get the goodies!) and then mails them individually across the UK. I am willing to make the order and mail the phones if we can find a way to ensure all parties interests are secure (ie. no one is going to get ripped off or left with Neo's they don't need). Has anyone got any ideas of how this could work?

:It may make sense, depending on numbers, to combine fractional 10s from several places (e.g. Hants, Oxford, West Mids). I would suggest waiting until orders are going to go in, and then shifting people around to their nearest regional organiser to make up a 10.
:Regarding security and trust of the transactions -- it's down to public reputations, I think. I'm organising the Hampshire one, and I've been active in the local Linux Users Group for years, so I know most of the people on our list, and they know that I'm pretty unlikely to run off to Patagonia with their money. I'd guess it's up to each organiser to come to an agreement with each purchaser that both are happy with. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 14:08, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

It's barking to think that - outside of London - there are likely to be as many as 10 people who want Freerunners and who are all within 30 or 45 minutes drive of each other. It's quite obvious, IMO, that postage will be required. See the "security of payments" subsection I've just added below. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

:Well, we've got 10 people for Hampshire already... [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)
::Well, an active LUG is going to make all the difference. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:41, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

==== UK Group Sales and shipping - security of payments ====

I'm prepared to pay up front for my Freerunner - at least 50% of the price, anyway - to someone with a decent reputation. Basically, if you've been posting on usenet or Linux-centric mailing-lists or web-forums for years then that's good enough for me. For instance uk.adverts.computers has always worked on the assumption of trusting the seller and paying up front - I've never been ripped off, and scammers are always identified quite quickly; obviously this identification was at the cost of at least one buyer, so in this case of an order of ten Freerunners we need some form of reputation in order to avoid that. Does the group buyer have lots of eBay feedback?

I believe that a 50% up-front payment largely solves the trust problem. What's the consensus?

In principle I'd be prepared to make the group order & post onwards (or allow collection - I'm about 5 minutes from M1 Junction 14, halfway between London & Birmingham), with the expectation of a 50% up-front payment. However cash is very tight at the moment, and I don't know that I'll be able to front the other 50%. I do have a decent online reputation, and I've been posting in Gentoo-user and on other mailing-lists for years. I can probably find at least one or two people who know me from these postings and who have visited my house or my father's socially or to pick up a secondhand LaserJet, but probably someone who has been active in a local LUG might be considered to have a better reputation. [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 18:07, 28 April 2008 (CEST)

{[http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Emailuser/sonicated Tim Coggins] 29/04} With the 50% up front model I would be concerned that once I have sent the phones out that someone would be so happy with their Neo that they might forget to give me the other 50%. What would I do if someone claimed their box was empty? Thinking about all these edge cases makes me think I might be better with a reseller and my Amex :(

:I wouldn't want to cover 50% of the price up front for even a single 10-pack. However, I've been a good member of HantsLUG for 9 or so years, I've run it for two, and I'm currently one of the team running lug.org.uk, so I've probably got a reasonable online reputation. [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] 18:37, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

:Sorry - I was thinking 50% when the order's placed with OpenMoko, the other 50% when the Freerunners arrive in the UK (cash on collection or cleared funds before shipping onwards). The person making the order should be the "most trustworthy" - it's easier for everyone else to "audit" him than for him to have to worry about any one of the other 9 buyers stiffing him. But having said all that, I wouldn't have any worries about paying 100% up-front to someone like [[User:Darksatanic|Darksatanic]] - [mailto:stroller@stellar.eclipse.co.uk let me know] if someone drops out of your group, mate (assuming you're happy to Special Delivery onwards to me). [[User:Strolls|Strolls]] 21:50, 29 April 2008 (CEST)

== [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#The_Netherlands The Netherlands] ==

Discuss possible ways how to deal with the distribution in The Netherlands.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04} I received an idea from [[User:Jan de Haan]]. We could try to find a distributor/importer, and approach that person with the question of doing the importing for us. Sadly I don't know anyone in that business, so I have no idea how to go about contacting someone like that.

{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 19/04} I might be able to help out here, next Tuesday I will talk with my ex-employer and ask if he has any ideas. (Their business is helping US companies establish market in Europe)

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 19/04}Please do. And keep us informed. Would be great if we can get this off the ground.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 19/04}Agree. For the record: the reason we are looking for a professional business to organize this for us is the inability of any person to front the money for 10 Freerunners, an amount of money ($6000,-) that almost everybody gives the hickups. So we're looking for a business that can buy us the 10 phones with the discount with the guaranteed sale of them. I've done business with sallandautomatisering (Am _not_ affiliated with them in any way) and they showed definite interest. So if Sander's way does not work, I suggest we contact them.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Jan, the Freerunner is cheaper than that. In group sale we're probably looking at a figure of 'just' $3690 (ex shipping, and probably other costs.) And otherwise it's $399 per sold phone (again excluding shipping costs and probably also import fees)
BTW it would be good if the people interested in getting a Neo in this group sale also add contact information, so that people can be notified, if you haven't done so already. Out of 11, we're only able to contact 8, at the moment.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 20/04} The $6000 was 10x the price for the first hardware version for sale with the debug option. Btw, I'm definitely interested in the debug version, although that is sold as a separte packge. Source http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015080.html (Thanks, Marcel. ;-) )

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} I have notified 9 people on the Dutch list about this page. The other two I have no way of contacting at the moment. Let's hope they read the community mailing list. :)

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 20/04} Yorick at this point, I'm not sure. I'm not an importer myself, just someone who is eager to get his grubby hands on a Neo. :) BTW, you could start a similar discussion on it for Belgians right here as well. Just add it to the page here. Just make a separate section on this page. :)

{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 20/04} I was thinking that, in the case finding someone willing to do the importing in the Netherlands would fail, we maybe could join such an initiative abroad.
@Jan de Haan: I think asking sallandautomatisering will do no harm.

{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 21/04} I can help oragnise the importing. This is something I do in my business but
have very little time available. So we need to be superefficient with information and of course financial arrangements. Feel free to mail me eric _at_ fruitcom.com.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 21/04}

Gepost via: http://salland.eu/content/mysalland/mail_contact.php
onder subject: E-mailcontact - Product Management artikel toevoegen

Hier kunt u artikelen opgeven, die nog niet in het assortiment van
Salland Automatisering voorkomen, maar die u wel door ons geleverd
zou willen zien worden.
Wees svp zo compleet mogelijk met het verstrekken van informatie
over het te leveren artikel.

Uw naam J. de Haan
Uw e-mailadres [[Special:Emailuser/User:Jan de Haan|Contact]]
Artikelinformatie
Merk openmoko
Naam freerunner
Website openmoko.com

L.S.,

wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?

Hoogachtend,

J. de Haan.

PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail
wordt daar ook gepost.

E-mailcontact - verzonden
Uw bericht is ontvangen en wordt zo spoedig mogelijk behandeld.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} Thanks Jan. I hope this will work, I'm just afraid, we're going to need more people to make it viable for those stores to import it. But I see that they use a .eu domain, so if they also sell stuff over the border, I don't think it to be too hard to drum up some support from the other European groups. That way we can make a bigger market to offset those import costs for the retailer.
BTW, I replaced your email address in that email, with something more spam-proof. ;)

{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 22/04} I had no luck with my ex-employer unfortunately. A comment about the Salland Automatisering letter though: You are talking about a E369,-, is that the price in Euro you are thinking about? ATM 369.00 USD = 231.037 EUR, shipping and taxes will be applied, anybody knows what the price will be for us taken that into account? How much money can a company make out of it, in order for us to still buy? I don't think a company will do it for free, but maybe they will do it for just the publicity, that can be good for them of course.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 22/04} If I had to ballpark it, I'd say aim at around 350, anything below it would be great. I'm not sure what the shipping costs/import costs would come at. I think, looking at other consumer electronic prices in the US and Europe, it's a safe bet (lots of appliances have about the same number behind the currency symbol, whether it is $ or euro)
And the $369 and $399 are still estimates, at least if I read Steve's mail correctly.

{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 20/04} Personally I wouldn't mind doing this through a private person, as long as things are properly documented (e.g. there is proof when things go wrong). That will mean having to pay in advance, but I doubt anyone of us would bother to run off with $4000. A 5 lines 'contract' is probably enough to make sure you get your money back when the Freerunner don't show up. But then, i'll just go along with the rest of you.

{[[User:Tjikkun|Sander Hoentjen]] 23/04} Through a private person is also fine by me, the only problem I see is getting a proper invoice. This might come in handy when there is a problem with the phone, for which you have insurance, like I do.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} Indeed, I'd like to get an invoice as well. If Openmoko would add a separate invoice for each of the ten phones in the box, so that everyone can use that for their warranty/administration. I don't see many problems with going through a private person. We could even make it a meet at a central location, ;) to hand out the phones, to make sure that everyone gets his/her phone.

{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 23/04} I like the idea to have Openmoko invoice each of the group separately, if that does not
kill their bulk buy offer. I am happy to go along with the proposal and send advances to someone in the group to consolidate the purchase. I work in importing so any help you need, please ask.

{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 24/04} Going through one person is fine with me. I'll happily pre-pay and get my phone handed out
on Utrecht CS :-)

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 23/04} Update: I'm still talking with sallandautomatisering, but cannot update untill a conclusion has been reached. Sorry. But hey, at least they are talking ;-) You'll have to trust me on that. If people don't, I can talk to one other person on this list in confidence, but you got to have a little patience for the moment. As another opportunity: can somebody take a look at [http://www.trisoft.de/] and give an opinion? Two possibilities arise from this: we take our business there as a group or ask a Dutch reseller to import from there.

{[[User:A.dre|André Disselhorst]] 23/04} Thank you for your work on Sallandautomatisering. I followed your pointer to Trisoft and was reminded of another shop: [http://www.pulster.de/index.htm?d__freerunner___b_OpenMoko_Freerunner_299_eur__b_972.htm] I don't know if they continue with importing Openmoko. I will keep an eye on them.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 23/04} And there is [http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=Neo%20Freerunner Handheld-linux.com], who seem eager to offer the Neo Freerunner as well. Just no Dutch stores (yet) :) Jan, I trust you. Keep up the good work.

{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 25/04} Maybe the people over at [http://www.mingos.nl/ Mingos] are willing to help out. They call themselves an IT Specialist in free software.

{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]] 25/04} I Why do we not import the consignment ourselves? What are the disadvantages. I could organise and/or provide the information to someone else in the group. What is the reason that we want to put our business through a dealer?

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} I think the biggest hurdle would be the invoice, warranty-wise. But I don't mind if one of us imports it, and then distributes it. Through a meet-up of some sorts would be great. A great way to get a community feel. :)
You say you have experience with importing goods, Eric. Do you know what sorts of extra costs we have to keep in mind? Sales tax? Import costs? VAT? 
Another could-be problem is with the amount of phones currently on the 'group sales list'. Currently we are at 16. Group sales are in increments of 10. So the importer could be stuck with 4 unsold phones (which of course could get sold on ebay, but it's an upfront investment in that case, with some insecurity for the importer), or 6 could get stuck with a higher expense (because they don't benefit from the group sale discount).

{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 25/04} Going through a reseller you should take in mind if that party is willing to do it without taking a (large) profit. One person (doesn't have to be a business) can contact OM and ask them if the order is bigger then 10 (but not an increment of 10) the discount would still be valid per Freerunner. Or maybe one of the german resellers would give the same discount if an order above 10 pieces at once was given and send to one central person. You'd pay german VAT but that doesn't matter you would have to pay dutch VAT if you import it directly from OM. Just my 2 cents. A reseller in Holland has to ask for VAT either way as well so...

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} A similar question was asked on the mailing list, and [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/015188.html Steve from openmoko] came back and told us, that "{t}here will be two products. Buy 1 OR buy 10.{...} So, if you wanted 11 you would buy a 10 +1."
It could be that that's changed. But I kinda doubt that. Well, ok, yes, VAT is needed. But I was kinda looking for a list of extra costs to keep in mind, when importing goods on this scale. Does customs take a fee, or something.

{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 25/04} Customs _sometimes_ lets packages go through without VAT, but not always. If it isn't clearly labeled they guess what's in there and tax you on it. Also, indeed, Steve said that 10+6 is out. By the way, you'll need to 'sell' 9 of the 10 phones to break even, be careful ordering 20 and selling 16! Buying 16 (10+6) and sharing the costs would bring it to $369 instead of $349 per phone.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 25/04} Not to nitpick, but the price is already $369 per phone in the 10 pack. But you do have a point. Though I think you can easily sell those off via ebay or marktplaats or any of the other online auction sites. Too bad it isn't out yet. Would have been great to have a box them and stand in Amsterdam during Queensday, selling the phones. ;)

{[[User:KenSentMe|Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof]] 26/04} I see we are at 17 already. Let's just try to get to 20 for the Netherlands. If we have that amount i am willing to import the phones for the group order, but i think we just should pay normal tax etc. and not try to avoid that by taking the chance the customs won't notice our package.

{[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]] 26/04 10:00} Before the Freerunner hits the streets we will heave 30 or more people joining. The price of the Freerunner won't drop with 20 or 30, but the shipping costs might.

{[[User:ChristW|Christ van Willegen]] 27/04} (I cut out a lot of somehow duplicated comments. If anyone misses anthing, I appologise for the inconvenience) I agree with Jeroen van de Nieuwenhof about not willing to avoid taxes. Neither do I, but it happend, sometimes. If you are willing to import phones for us, that would be wonderful. Thanks!

{[[User:Ericsp|Eric Spierings]] 28/04} Guys, I thank all of you for working on this issue. Unfortunately I cannot add anything valuable to this. I'll happily join Christ while picking up the phone at Utrecht CS. :-)

{[[User:AVee|Arjan Veenstra]] 28/04} Shipping costs are, reading from comments on the community list, around $16 per piece for the 10pack. We might save some more ordering 20 or 30 at once, but we could consider placing seperate orders and have these delivered at more convinient places. (We migth, depending on the numbers, even mix and match with the guys in [http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#Belgium Belgium]. Perhaps for some Antwerp is closer then Utrecht...)

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 28/04} Just commenting to add [http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html this link] to Steve's message to the mailing list, with an estimation of the UPS shipping costs. (For us, it is a bit more expensive, but the UPS website isn't exactly cooperating with me. If someone else could look it up. The number I got for expedited delivery was 170.94 USD, for the 10-pack, and 184.20 for UPS Worldwide Express, but I'm not entirely sure if that number is correct. Somehow the site demanded I enter in the dimensions in (rounded up) inches. So those are estimates.
But my take is that it's probably wise to use the expedited, because the delivery date is in all options about the same, with one difference: Express is delivered before noon, and Expedited before the end of the day.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Hi All. I'm sorry, but the dealer I was talking with, is not interested:

Geachte heer,

Ik heb gekeken naar de site Trisoft.de

Ik vrees dat het voor ons niet interessant is om hier zaken mee te doen. Wellicht dat u zelf kunt bestellen bij Trisoft.de

Wat ik heb gezien is dat er geen KvK of BTW nummers zijn en gewoon als particulier het e.e.a. geregeld kan worden.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx
Product Management / Technical Support

Salland Automatisering

Maybe we should take their advice and order through trisoft. Anybody know anything about them? If we can pick them up ourselves (for me a 3 hours drive) we might be able do it. Main problem will be to front the money.

{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} I think, reading the mail list, that 10 packs need to be ordered from the US so Trisoft is not an option I think. 1 Entity should order the 10 pack(s) and then distribute them to the other people. I could ask around maybe someone I know can be the central entity.

{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 29/04} @Jan de Haan: Maybe you can try Azerty (www.azerty.nl). The people who founded Salland Automatisering have started that new company some years ago.

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 29/04} But then point them to Openmoko.com/.org, because that's AFAIK the only way of getting the group discount, give them the link to the mailing list post. 
But I think right now the best way is to have one or two people place the group order, and distribute it from that central location, either through the mail or through a meeting. (The latter has my preference)

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 29/04} Ok, following mail is on it's way to azerty. Sorry Madjo, sent before I saw your comment.
from Jan de Haan <haan.j.de@gmail.com>
to inkoop@azerty.nl,
date Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM
subject Openmoko - Freerunner
mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 8:52 PM (0 minutes ago)

L.S.,

wij (http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:GroupSales#The_Netherlands) proberen
als groep minstens 10 openmoko/freerunner toestellen te verkrijgen a E369,- voor
de groepskorting. Bent u geintereseerd om dit voor ons te realiseren?
Een importeur schijnt trisoft.de te zijn. Let wel: dit product is
nog niet op de markt,
al zijn de laatste test productie runs klaar.

Hoogachtend,

J. de Haan.

PS Reactie kan via mijn email adres of via de bovengenoemde pagina, deze mail
wordt daar ook gepost.

{[[User:mivaho|Michel van Horssen]] 29/04} Hi again, had a talk and we, OpenSource Nieuws Nederland would be willing to be that one entity who places that order in the US. There are a lot of things that would have to be worked out and costs have to be calculated but we would be willing to help and organize this with your help. There should be a page were people could signup once the price is known (first in first out untill a 10 pack is filled) and all would have to be paid in advance before ordering because we can't pay that amount of money in advance. Let me know if this is an idea or that you rather have an hardware reseller handle, is also cool, just let me know. OSNN is a company with a VAT number and if we will invoice individually but will not do waranty, if you want that then you need to order with trisoft or an other company. Warranty on the 10 pack is still a thing that needs to be answered on the list I think.

{[[User:EdbO|Eddy Boer]] 30/04} I have also found a company who is interesting to help us. They don't sell hardware but woodworking machines, and they use opensource software as much as possible. We have talked about it and they want to buy the phones at Trisoft due to the warranty, but when you don't worry about warranty ...... Al the phones they buy should be already sold to you and the total amount should have a factor of 10 (10-pack). When the phones were arrived you can pick them up with an invoice of the company or they send the phone to you (with an invoice), but then you have to pay shipping costs. All the phones should be paid before they place the order! Belgium is also welcome!

{[[User:Madjo|Marcel de Jong]] 04/05} I know I can't speak for all of us here. But me personally, I have a little bit more faith in the offering of Open Source Nieuws Nederland. Sorry Eddy, btw, I doubt that phones sold through Trisoft would fall under the group sale. But I could be mistaken. 
Provided we get answers on the warranty thing from Openmoko, I think that's our best bet.

{[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]] 05/05} Ok, let's take a quick vote (btw, any reseller who is interested in taking 10 way orders can extend this table):
{[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]
=== Votes for a reseller ===
{|border=1
!Name
!Trisoft
!Open Source Nieuws Nederland
|-
|[[User:Jan de Haan|Jan de Haan]]
|
|1
|-
|[[User:Eric_Smith|Eric Smith]]
|
|1 (Subject to a solution for warranty)
|-
|[[User:PingPong|Peter Hageman]]
|
|1
|-
|[[Special:Emailuser/User:PWerken|Peter van de Werken]]
|
|1
|-
|'''Total'''
|0
|4
|}

== Belgium ==
{[[User:Yorick|Yorick]] 20/04} I'm from Belgium, would shipping be possible to Belgium? I'm very interested. thanks.

== Croatia ==
{--[[User:W00t|W00t]] 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)} '''ja ne bih da već sada radimo pan-balkansku grupu, iskreno sam iznenađen odazivom do sada, pa jedino možda ako ne skupimo dovoljno ljudi do kraja ovog tjedna...'''

moj post sa hr.comp.os.linux upućen mnalisu;

> BTW, ti si zapravo kontaktirao HULK i rekli su ti da bi to oni isli raditi i

> gnjaviti se sa svim tim, ili ih cisto spominjes onako u smislu "pa oni su

> dragi ljudi, sigurno ce besplatno uloziti mjesece svog zivota u to u zamjenu

> za pivu" ?

Davio sam ih malo zadnja dva dana na IRCu, i prema logu načelno su za
da se narudžbe hendlaju preko njih. A i mislim da se ipak ne radi o
mjesecima života bačenih za pivu, more like možda 2-3 sata za gajbu
ili dvije :), hell ako je toliko teško napravit ću ja sve, učlanit se
u HULK ako treba

ali do toga trenutka ovako ja razmišljam:

1.) skupimo 10 zainteresiranih
2.) ja nazovem carinu i agenciju za telekomunikacije
3.) pitamo openmoko za shipping estimate
4.) ako su svi i dalje za, skupljanje sredstava i na kraju narudžba

dakle ništa nije obligatory, idemo step by step, onog trenutka kada se
prijavi 10 ljudi na wikiju ja zovem nadležne službe, pa ćemo vidit di
stojimo sa uvozom i tim''

nemoj odmah "worst case scenario" :)

User:PWerken

2008-04-29T13:44:50Z

PWerken:

'''Peter van de Werken'''

Computer science student (software technology master) at Utrecht University.

Group sales

2008-04-29T10:05:40Z

PWerken: /* Status */

Group sales

2008-04-27T11:53:07Z

PWerken: M(acedonia) comes before N(etherlands)

Group sales

2008-04-27T10:19:43Z

PWerken: /* Status @ 20/20 */

Group sales

2008-04-27T09:23:56Z

PWerken: /* Status was off by one, we're at 19! */